116 réponses à ce sujet

[planarvoid]

Next Level Threshold

Je vous présente un deck un peu méconnus dans nos contrées. J’en ai rencontré quelques fois en event mais très rare.
Tout d’abord, j’adore le concept : un subtil mélange de threshold et de landstill.
Le deck utilise toute la force du canadian Thresh (mana denial, créature low cost) et le meilleur finisseur de landstill que je nomme : Jace TMS.

Suite au ban de VV, tout les deck « tempo » peuvent revenir au devant de la scène SI et seulement SI ‘folk est bien géré.
Ca tombe bien NLT gère +/- bien. YOUPIE YOUPIE !!

Ce deck est un bon deck, il faut régler quelques problèmes notamment avec Sower of Temptation (control magic effect) car KotR fait mal, très très mal.
C’est pourquoi j’écris ce primer et j’espère que vous contribuerez de manière constructive a l’épanouissement du deck.
Je me suis basé sur The Source ou le primer existe en anglais. J’ai juste réaliser un petit travail de traduction rien de plus.



Alors, un peu d’histoire…

The beginning

Mainboard:

1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sideboard:

2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's

La liste initiale est celle de Rafael del Riego, elle lui a permis d’aller a la 9th place du Gd prix de Madrid en 2010. Le deck ressemble au canadian threshold. En voici ses principales forces.

MANA DENIAL

Le deck contient le pack infernal de stifle/Wasteland. Ces deux cartes à elles seules peuvent vous faire gagner des parties en deux temps trois mouvements si votre adversaire n’a plus de terrain en début de partie pour lancer ses sorts. Complétez ceci à des free counterspell comme FOW, daze et spell snare, votre ennemis n’aura pratiquement rien sur table pendant que vous le bourrinez avec vos créa.

REMOVAL « efficient dynamic »

Lightning bolt, Fire//ice (ou dans un deck metagamé firespout a la place de Fire//ice) servent de missile SCUD contre les créa adverse.
Merfolk et goblin deviennent rien que par ces cartes un bon MU !! Comment ? Appuyer sur le bouton rouge et ciblé les créatures clés du deck adverse.
7 Little boys sont chargés et n’attendent que vous.
Pas de créa en face ?? Pas de problème on visera directement la tronche de l’adversaire afin de le liquider plus vite… Hasta la Vista…..Baby

Créature « efficient dynamic »

Quand on pense a une créature… verte… sortant pour que dalle et bourrinant bien, on parle de tarmo.
Tarmo fait son boulot de bourineur mais aussi de videur de boite… il stoppe les deck trop agressifs. Cool non ?
Autre créature qui fait le café ou presque, je nomme Vendilion Clique. Elle stoppe les jeux combo, emmerde la main des joueurs adversaires, ralentit l’adversaire et met la pression quand même.
Cool aussi hein ?

La base de Mana

Le canadian thresh joue +/- 18 lands. Dans notre plan de jeu il ne faut pas se contenter d’avoir deux land en jeu puis basta… Faut du mana, le pez, l’oseille de magic, faut remplir son pool. C’est pq on joue 21 land. On ne doit pas manquer de land dropp et arriver à 4 voir un peu plus est optimal.
Avec plus de terrain, on se permet de jouer un des meilleurs land man du jeu (hors deck tribal) : Mishra Factory.
Mishra fais son job pour bloquer les deck trop agressif et de plus il met la pression contre les deck contrôle… WHOOHOOOO.
Aussi le deck rentre un seul exemple de crucible of world de facons a utiliser des mishra/waste/fetch  à l’infinis.
En tout et pour tout le deck joue 3 land colorless, 15 colors (fetch, duals,basics).

JACE the mind sculptor

La carte est juste inimaginable. Attendez…. INIMAGINABLE !!
Sa capacité de filtré le deck adverse est tout bonnement INSANE. Si votre ennemis et vous etes installé dans le champs de bataille il vous donne un CA de malade grâce a sa capacité de brainstorm. Dans une moindre mesure (a ne pas utiliser tout de suite) sa capacité a bouncer les crea adverse vous remets dans une position confortable et finalement son finish vous fais gagner la partie.
La force de Jace, c’est d’etre utile dans TOUTE les situations. Je le compare à Mc Gyver, avec un poil de cul de Jace, il vous fait le café en mettant une grosse claque a votre adversaire… bref !

Sower of temptation

Une bonne carte… mais la moins bonne du deck. Son effet control magic est tout bon… sauf dans certains MU. Je ne vais pas m’attarder sur cette carte, car je prefere de loin contrôle magic dans le meta actuel.
Néanmoins contre merfolk sower fait la différence, prendre un reejeri ou un coralhelm fait la différence.

Analyses des MU.

Merfolk :  FAVORABLE

Les poissons vont probablement penser qu’ils ont l’avantage car on joue des island…. **rire sadique** MOUHAHAHA.
De base, nous avons 4 removals afin de detruire ses lords et des creatures plus grosses que les siennes (tarmo).
Sower of Temptation fait des merveilles dans ce MU.
Le seul cas difficile est le vas ou il cast plusieurs lord… la devient dur, ou bien si on entre dans son plan de jeu avec standstill.
Finalement post side on rentre les spout et REB. On retire en priorité stiffle et daze qui sont assez mauvais dans le MU.
Post side, ca doit passer relativement bien.


Goblins: Favorable

Again this deck has a good matchup with the other popular tribal deck. Your removal will always have a good target, and better yet stifle can act as a counterspell in this matchup, stopping either matron or ringleader in their track. Even if they manage to resolve an aether vial, just having a stifle or two can make their "uncounterable" guys a whole lot worse. Plus you get to sideboard in firespout to crush them once they try and get past your tarmogoyf or mishras factory. Boarding is pretty simple, bring in firespouts and taking out sower and another card of your choice. At first I thought the card to take out was a jace, but then I played more matches against the little red men and found that a jace with just one of two guys on board to protect him was just amazing. You can just fateseal away bad cards and make their topdecks garbage while you hold down the fort with superior creatures.

Zoo: Even

This matchup is all about the grind. Good players can eek out the incremental advantages that give you the win, whereas worse players will have trouble against zoo as they are left trying to deal with a 6/6 knight of the reliquary. The key to this matchup is resource and spell management. Their deck has plenty of good targets for lightning bolt and fire//ice, plus counterspells to deal with their relevant threats. What the NLT player needs to do is find ways to generate card advantage over time until their able to take the game. For example, when you have a goyf in play, block a nactal, and they have to use a bolt or something to get rid of him, sometimes its best just to let it go and not counter the removal with something like a force of will. Since you are playing 6 one mana cantrips and jace, your ability to find action after the board is cleared is much stronger than the zoo player. This means your topdecking ability is vastly superior to the zoo player, and given a few turns it's pretty easy to get yourself back in the lead. Firespout once again comes in as a great way to clear out all their one drops, and allows you to use your counters for their large creatures while still being able to easily answer their one drops. If the zoo player boards in a ton of cards, there's also a good chance they're bringing in cards like choke or maybe jitte, so retaliating with things like grip can work well too. Even though each match against zoo with this deck is difficult, tight play and disciplined use of your spells can bring you the win. Sower comes out just because they play so many ways to take it out of the sky, but the other cards to take out come down to personal preference (things like dazes on the draw, for example).

Storm Combo: Even to slightly favorable

Combo is never something you can take lightly. Just because you're playing blue spells doesn't mean you automatically get a win versus these kinds of decks. The key to this matchup is knowing when you can stick dudes to apply pressure while also keeping your opponent at bay. Cards like bolt and fire//ice are obviously bad in these matchups, but its cards like stifle that are amazing here. Just about all of these decks rely on activated or triggered abilities in some shape or form, allowing stifle to act as a one mana counter, exactly the kind of thing you want when fighting a combo deck. The best thing to do here is to be extra careful with how their are sculpting their game plan, and use your countermagic correctly. Vendillion clique here is also fantastic, acting as a pseudo duress while also getting her beat on to the tune of 3 damage a turn. After boarding we get extra counter magic with spell pierce, and maybe REB if they are running enough blue cards. Firespout can also come in, acting as a good answer to empty the warrens. If you're playing it, null rod is also pretty savage in this matchup, blanking their lotus petals, moxes, and LEDs, meaning their mana generation takes a huge hit. All you take out is sower first and then burn like fire//ice and bolt second, with fire//ice coming out first since it deals less damage for more mana, and bolt can be about 3-4 less cards that a ANT player gets to draw if they try to combo off.

Belcher: Favorable

This is the kind of deck that gives belcher the willies. We have a bunch of permission to stop them from comboing out game one, especially spell snare which stops any burning wishes in their tracks. Stifle is also sweet against empty the warrens, since they have to run it out without any discard protection game one. After board things just get better, since we get more counters, firespouts to make the empty plan even worse, and possibly null rod to once again own any artifact plan. The cards you want to board out here are a little different then storm combo, since bolt is actually useful in this matchup, getting rid of tinder walls they run out early, as well as killing xantid swarm they usually board in. Sower is obviously the first card taken out, followed by fire//ice.

Control (UWx landstill, UGB standstill, etc.) Even to slightly favorable

This matchup is where vendillion clique shows its true muscle. The ability to run out a 3 power 3 mana flier at instant speed is great for pressuring a control deck, but the real power is the disruption it offers. When you cast clique, it basically acts as a blue duress, taking their best card and giving them something thats almost always worse. In addition, clique gives you fantastic information on what your opponent has in grip. And it doesn't even have to take anything, allowing you to see your opponents hand of blanks, let them draw nothing new and know exactly what you have to play around. Clique is also fantastic in response to standstill, giving you a chance to disrupt them, put them on a clock, and best of all make them break their own standstill when clique gets them down to low life. It's especially good against the UGB standstill lists, since it actually gets rid of Lftl for a very long time (they have to shuffle, then draw it again). The deck also minds standstill a lot less than others, since we run factories of our own and wastelands to deal with opposing man lands. The board gives you plently of tools to fight control, such a REBs, spell pierces, and krosan grip is the opponent is running things such as humility. The sowers obviously come out, but another cards that usually gets taken out is force of will. It might seem strange to take it out, but in this case you're bringing in one mana counters and taking out zero mana counters that 2-1 yourself. The control player isn't going to be playing out anything at lightning speed anytime soon, so card advantage is a great thing to have in this matchup. Some of the burn is the final stuff that ends up coming out.

Dredge: Unfavorable

This is not a match you really want to play against. The deck can counter their broken spells, and easily remove enablers such as putrid imp, but if their engine starts to rev up it can cause this deck a lot of problems. Graveyard hate out of the board helps, but it's still not a matchup you would really want to play against. Thankfully the deck isn't terribly popular at the moment, which is a great boon to the NLT player. Obviously the graveyard hate comes in, as well as firespout to be able to deal with a bunch of zombie tokens (once the bridges are cleared of course). The main key is to keep them off a discard outlet and try and beat them down quickly with tarmogoyf and friends. Obviously not a great matchup but thems the breaks.

New Horizons: Slightly Unfavorable

They have a very similar game plan, but their creatures are much larger. Sower in this matchup can be fantastic, stealing a knight when the NH player thinks it can go the distance just because we don't play white removal. Jace is also fantastic against them, bouncing their dude back to their hand while we can beat down with something like vendillion clique. Factory/crucible is also amazing against them, since their 8 main creatures that win them the game (goyf and knight) don't have trample, although terravore is a different story. After sideboard things like REB and spell pierce help, as well as having some kind of control magic effect, since they are not likely to board in krosan grip against you. The key to this match is who can get more value out of stifle/wasteland. NH only runs one basic land, so if they are kept off their fetches and their duals, they can easily get stuck with 2 lands waiting for that third one to cast a knight or a terravore. We run 3 basic islands in this deck, which means we can get those 3 lands and then just play the 4th from our hand and then cast things like sower and jace, both of which are awesome in the matchup. Coincidentally, those cards are some of the most important cards in this matchup, along with their 3 mana creatures. If you can get down your four drops while countering or at least slowing down their 3 drops you'll have a good chance at beating the new horizons player. REB comes in to deal with countermagic, as well as extra control magic effects. Relic is also great here, allowing you to first bolt or fire//ice one of their creatures, then remove both graveyards to kill their guy due to state based effects. And of course relic just straight kills terravore on the spot.

Vengevine Madness: Even to slightly unfavorable

The new kid on the block sure has some power, but NLT can fight it pretty well. Spell snare is an all star in this match, getting either their discard outlet or their survival. Also, killing off noble heirarchs is easy with fire//ice, and sometimes we can get two at once. Add in the mana denial package and the survival deck can stumble with its engine. If they manage to find a way to force through survival though, things can get rough very very quickly. The sideboard can help quite a bit, with firespout being awesome against the deck, and REB being great against their countermagic. Krosan grip also get sideboarded for obvious reasons, being able to stop survival in the middle of the activations, and punishing bad players who think they can just wait and respond to your spells with survival activations. Watch out for submerge though, which can be a beating when your tarmogoyf goes back into your library following a fetch land activation. Krosan grip certainly comes in, as does firespout since without a survival on the table they just lose their entire board and gameplan to that one card. Graveyard removal also comes in to slow down their vengevine plan and make them slow down and give yourself so time to find answers to their other threats. The cards you take out are pretty much up to personal opinion

Countertop: Even to favorable

Although it might just be my personal experience, I've found the counterbalance matchup to not be that bad. Most lists have gone to the 4c lists, and we have stifles and wastelands to mess up their mana. Spell snare is awesome once again, being able to counter counterbalance as well as their usual win cons, whether its a goyf or a thopter foundry. Out of the board spell pierce is excellent, as is krosan grip as usual. Control magic/threads can be great against versions with goyf, since they are generally higher casting cost cards that easily turn the match around, or at worst deal with their threat and a swords or path to exile. Never an easy matchup, but barring a really quick top/balance lock that you can't stop, they is always room to play around their cards and find ways to get the incremental advantages you need to win the game. Krosan grip out of the board is pretty sweet here, as is both spell pierce and REB. Null rod is also good to fantastic here is you have it. Sower stays in against green versions of countertop, and go out against the thopter lists. FOW comes out since it gets replaced by the cheap counters, and burn comes out as well.

With the matchups listed, the final thing I would like to show to you is the current list that I play when I go to legacy tournaments:




Le deck aujourdhui :

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 control magic

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard

3 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
1 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
1 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast


Deck TOP4 SCG 4/03/11

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Engineered Explosives

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
2 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain

Lands
2 Flooded Grove
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mind Harness
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout

Quoi sider/desider???

Green Countertop
+3 spell pierce +2 grip +1 null rod +3 REB +2 mind harness
-3 daze -3 firespout -4 force of will -1 bolt

Non-green Countertop (usually thopter countertop)
+3 spell pierce +2 grip +1 null rod +3 REB
-3 daze - 3 firespout -3 bolt

Zoo
+2 mind harness +1 firespout +2 grip
-3 daze -2 clique

Goblins
+1 firespout +1 null rod
-2 daze

Merfolk
+1 firespout +3 REB +1 null rod
-4 stifle -1 daze

Tendrils combo
+3 spell pierce +1 null rod
-2 jace -1 crucible -1 bolt
possibly +3 REB -3 bolt

Belcher
+3 spell pierce +1 null rod
-2 jace -1 crucible -1 bolt

Landstill
+3 spell pierce +3 REB +2 grip
-3 firespout -4 bolt -1 daze
possibly -1 daze +1 null rod if they have top, EE, etc

New Horizons
+2 mind harness +3 spell pierce +2 relic
-3 firespout -3 daze -1 ponder

Green and Taxes
+2 mind harness +2 grip +1 null rod
-3 daze -1 ponder -1 firespout

Junk
+2 mind harness +1 null rod
-3 firespout

Dredge
+1 crypt +2 relic +1 firespout
-2 jace -1 control magic -1 ponder

Modifié par planarvoid, 07 March 2011 - 18:52 .

[Necrotyr]

Euh si je peut me permettre ce genre de jeu n'est pas nouveau il serai même plus dépassé.

ce genre de jeu souffre contre :
- Merfolk car je te cite "Le seul cas difficile est le vas ou il cast plusieurs lord… la devient dur" or les liste de merfolk joue entre 10 et 16 lord ce qui veu dire qu'il y auras quasiment tjr plusieur lord, de plus ton plan denial est inefficace alors que celui de merfolk peut te ruiner s'il joue stiffle, t s'il ne joue pas stiffle il joue piérce et la c'est t'es anti-bete qui ne ferront plus grand chose.
- LS UW, il a une base de mana extrêmement saine et bcp de gestion que toi de menace.
- Rock, bon la je ne sais pas car j'ai jamais tester le MU mais en gros tu n'as aucun moment de gerer tarmo ou chevalière résolu non ?

Enfin bref je suis vraiment perplexe sur le fait que ce genre de deck puissent revenir sur le devant de la scéne.

[Tom]

Salut

Bon, je suis pas un killer de Magic, donc j'ai peut-être raté un truc, mais à première vue, ça semble étrnage comme concept de deck.

On a l'impression que 2 plans de jeu esaient de cohabiter, mais sans synergies... En fait, j'ai du mal à voir l'intéret de tempo dans une optique controle. Ca fait des bonnes cartes bien mortes dès le mid game (daze, fire/ice notamment), et justement, le mid - late game, c'est là où tu veux aller puisque tu veux poser jace

De plus, il y'a quand même des gros thons maintenant en legacy, alors foudre comme removal, c'est plus tip-top.

Je ne parle pas non plus de controle magic, dans un format avec grip et pridemage, ça n'a pas l'air d'être une option ultime...

[planarvoid]

Je sais que le deck semble zarb/dépassé machin machin je pense clairement qu'il y a du potentiel

Pour les plus septiques, le deck vient de se placer 6éme au jupiter games ( 100 personnes).
Ca vaut ce que ca vaut mais dans un enveronement ou on sais presque a l'avance les deck joué on peux faire la surprise  

Maintenant oui le gros probleme viens surtout des KOTR  

Je vous ferait part de mes essais ac le deck quitte a me faire retamer, le concept me plait bien.

J'ai joué contre pre ban VV et il tiens tres bien la route.

[Jo_la_loose]

J'ai joué ça un peu il y a un peu moins d'un an, et ça s'est passé plutôt bien...

Pour mémoire, on en avait un peu parlé et voici un copier/coller de ce que j'avais pu en dire :

Sakimmd, le Vendredi 30 Avril 2010 à 18:04, dit :

Next level canadian, c'est la liste que jouait Joe à son dernier tournoi donc il devrait pas me contredire:

Absolument, très bonne liste en plus... J'aurais jamais cru, je l'ai découverte le jour d'avant le tournoi... Depuis je la teste dans tous les sens et je trouve ça très fort.
De toute façon, je trouvais déjà fort de remplacer mongoose par clique.
... en oubliant, du coup, le plan "mongoose puis du tempo et du contrôle", et j'étais devenu fan du plan "du tempo pour arriver en mid/late game et t'avoir au contrôle", après avoir joué FaerieSalker pendant des semaines.
Jace ne fait que renforcer cette optique, en plus.

De toute façon, mongoose, de nos jours, c'est franchement de moins en moins fort (steppe lynx la mange, nacatl trade avec et surtout, surtout, surtout, elle part sur firespout ).

(mon sideboard était différent, j'ai changé 6 slots et j'ai fait : -2 archmage, -1 grudge, -1 spell pierce, -1 jitte, -1 relic of progenitus, +2 faerie macabre, +1 divert, +1 misdirection, +1 rushing river, +1 EE, mais il y a avait là-dedans une grosse part de "on est à MC, divert et misdi c'est fort).


EDIT pour Nico : Comme je le disais sur le forum : J'ai essayé de me renseigner un peu sur ce deck, et j'ai appris que la même liste finit 9ème au GP Madrid), le mec ayant fait un magistral 14-0-3 sans avoir aucun bye (respect), et aussi première d'un tournoi de 98 personnes (pour les résultats significatifs).
C'est vraiment très bon, très agréable à jouer, mais si tu n'as aucun très mauvais Mu, tu n'en as pas non plus des très très bons. Bref, un deck solide quel que soit le meta, mais qui ne troue aucun meta.


Ca rappelle : 1) que le deck ne sort pas de nulle part mais a eu des résultats, à un moment. 2) le plan du jeu, qui est clairement d'entrer dans le mid/late game sans que l'adversaire ait pris un avantage déterminant (en d'autres termes, un plan contrôle) en utilisant des outils plutôt tempo.

[planarvoid]

merci d'apporter un peu d'eau au moulin ca fais plez.

Je pense que le deck tourne, le truc que j'ai pas tester c'est le plan punishing fire/grove.

Sinon comme tu le dis bien il a pas vraiment de mauvais MU mis a part dredge qui est une plaie, pas de tres bon non plus (TES reste un bon MU, le reste c'est kiff-kiff)

Maintenant j'aimerais trouver une solution face a KoTR, autre que sower ou control magic. De side ya mind harness, mais l'entretien m'ennuie bcp.

[OL-iv]

J'ai monté ça y'a quelques temps, un soir de tournoi magasin.
ça a bien marché, mais ça veut rien dire.

http://www.magic-vil...deck.php?211806

Je la poste ici parce qu'on est dans  "Nouveaux Concepts / Decks à développer"
je sais bien que c'est pas le même plan de jeu, mais c'est en gros le même ésprit.

       1 Forest
        1 Mountain
        2 Island
        3 Tropical Island
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Misty Rainforest
        4 Scalding Tarn
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        3 Vendilion Clique
        4 Lorescale Coatl
        4 Tarmogoyf
        3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
        3 Daze
        3 Spell Snare
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Force of Will
        4 Lightning Bolt
        3 Ponder
SB:  2 Relic of Progenitus
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Firespout
SB:  3 Pyroblast
SB:  3 Spell Pierce

Les coatl sont vraiment fort, ils peuvent même surprendre à ce prendre 6 marqueur lors d'une attaque
Le nombre élevé de créatures est trés important pour leurs effet parafoudre [clique, grim, tarmo]
Je ne joue pas wasteland car la curve du deck est trop haute, et je pense que daze est virable mais j'y arrive pas.
les grim switch pour firespout contre aggro.

[planarvoid]

merci de poster, je vais continuer la liste des MU du deck.
Je vais ensuite discuter des cartes non jouée comme grim et mangoose.
Ensuite le plan a tester comme je l'ai dis plus haut c'est la combo punishing fire/ grove à voir.



Dans ton cas, ne pas jouer le plan stifle/waste me rebutte un peu. Ce plan peut te deglinguer un deck adverse sur les trois premier tour.
Contre TES c'est encore plus la joie!!!  

Les coatl sont fort, mais se prennent leur bounce, et se retrouve 2/2. Mais comme tu dis ca peut creer la surprise.

Si ca vous interesse, j'ai sous la main quelques bon report recent en anglais...

Merci de me lire, le francais n'est pas ma langue maternelle!!!   

[tomjulioo]

c'est drole, des qu'un deck a un MU soit disant faible contre landstill, un ardennais s'empresse de dire que c'est un deck de caille, dépassé, etc etc...

a premiere vue, j'aime beaucoup la liste avec punishing fire/grove: ca va pas vite mais on s'en tape on est censé avoir controlé le early game et du coup, controler le late game non?

[Necrotyr]

tomjulioo, le Lundi 24 Janvier 2011 à 22:03, dit :

c'est drole, des qu'un deck a un MU soit disant faible contre landstill, un ardennais s'empresse de dire que c'est un deck de caille, dépassé, etc etc...

Oui enfin ca va le mauvais Mu contre LS est loin d'être mon seul argument, et se n'est d'ailleurs pas la cause de la disparition de ce deck vue que LS n'est pas vraiment sur-représenté ( et donc n'est pas à prendre en compte lors du choix d'un deck )

Enfin je ne vois pas comment je peut avoir tord en disant que ce genre de jeu ne reviendra pas sur le devant de la scène, car la seule chose qui a changé entre le moment ou on l'a effectivement déjà vue disparaitre et maintenant et la disparition d'Ant Feat.mystical ( qui devait etre un MU plutôt bon je pense )

Modifié par Necrotyr, 24 January 2011 - 22:44 .

[strife2]

Je suis sceptique sur le jeu notamment sur ton optimise sur Merfolk. Je sais pas si t'as beaucoup testé le MU mais il est loin d'être favorable vu la liste. Lorsque je jouais Countertop UGr avec des Grim MD, des Firespout, des REB et des needle post-side j'avais encore du mal donc bon...

[planarvoid]

le MU contre LS est loin d'etre mauvais, je dirais meme qu'il est equilibré à legerement a notre avantage.

bon voici le quote recent de l'auteur du vrai primer sur le futur ou non du deck.

Citation

Overall, the decklist is really good, although there is still potential left for improvement. Hopefully I'll figure it out before SCG Washington DC and Edison roll around, I would love to finally attend one of these events so I can top 8 and get this deck some more exposure. I definitely think its still one of the best decks in legacy that nobody really knows about, and I'd love to crush people at an SCG open who don't see the deck coming.

sinon voici le dernier report tout frais, posté durant cette journée.

Citation

Anyways, after playing survival for the 3 months everyone realized the deck was beyond insane, I've come back to playing NLT, getting to the top 8 of the most recent tournament held at Jupiter Games. It was pretty big too, had a little over 100 players, even with the GP being the same weekend. My list is pretty similar to the one I posted in the first post, but I made some tweaks.

Maindeck

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard

3 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
1 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
1 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

The main changes were taking out sowers, replacing them with another Jace and a ponder, as well as replacing the fire//ice's with firespout. The sowers were taken out since they had been the most disappointing card before in the maindeck, and Jace is always so fucking sweet that I just wanted to play another one. The firespout's were a metagame call, seeing as how popular merfolk and goblins have been the past few weekends. Add in the fact that a ton of people play zoo at jupiter games every tournament meant I wanted to try them out main and see how they did. The extra sideboard space meant another spell pierce, as well as an extra control magic effect. I had been looking at mind harness for a while, and decided I wanted to try it out.

Round 1 vs Ur Merfolk

His list had red for bolt and grim lavamancer main, supposedly so he could beat the mirror. Seems like decent logic. But it didn't help him when his 4 creatures got swept away by main deck firespout game one. Ohhhh yeeaahh. Game two was more of the same, burn deals with the actual problem creatures (the lords), and goyf comes along and finishes things quickly.

1-0

Round 2 vs New Horizons

And the pilot was none other than David Price, the innovator of the deck. Game one was pretty harsh, as no sower main means his creatures are bigger than mine, aka I lose. Game two mind harness does the job, but game three a mind harness on terravore gets blow up a turn before I would have drawn the force that saves my ass. Close game ends up going his way.

1-1

Round 3 vs Zoo

These games were pretty weird. Both times he gets one early dude to stick, gets in about 10 damage with it, then tries to kill me with burn while I have counter protection to stay safe for the time being. After the initial flurry of spells, both games come down to me having cantrips that find gas, and me eventually winning.

2-1

Round 4 vs Countertop

These games weren't that close. Games one get the swords out with goyfs, and then use my two factories to beat him down, while his top and counterbalance look on helplessly. Game two I get to board all my sweet one mana counterspells, and he isn't able to get much action going while my efficient creatures take him down.

3-1

Round 5 vs Belcher

Man I wish I could have played this matchup more. It's just so unbelievably good. Just about the only way you lose is if your on the draw without force, or have a bad hand that should be mulliganed. Anyways I get game one when I daze a seething song and he doesn't have any more mana to start up again. Game two he tries to go off once, I counter a land grant seeing that chrome mox is his only permanent mana source, then untap and play null rod. SICK. BEATS. The rest of the game he has no more mana as I take him down with goyf while still having double force backup anyways. It was just one of those 'still had all these' games.

4-1

Round 6 vs Fast Zoo

I actually knew the list I was playing against, since I had done some test game with it two days prior to the tournament. The deck runs goblin guide, more burn, and no Kotr to try and win the game faster then most conventional zoo lists. Game 1 is really close, he gets me down to one when I stabilize. He tries to PoP to get the draw, but I have spell snare to get me the win. Game two is also pretty close, he gets me down to 3 before running out of gas, and doesn't draw the right burn before goyf goes the distance.

5-1

Round 7 vs Zoo

Again with the zoo, jeez. Game one is the first zoo game I drop, where he just gets goyf down and I can't answer it. Though, to be fair, there was a misplay with a brainstorm that probably cost me the game, but I don't know what the final outcome would have been if I had done the right thing. Game two isn't that close, I firespout a bunch of dudes, then firespout more dudes again, then goyf beats for the win. Game three I maintain control with a goyf and counter his relevant cards. He does land a choke though, only problem is all my land are still untapped. One turn before he dies, he goes for path, only for me to hardcast force of will and take the match,.

6-1

Quarterfinals vs Countertop

This match I really should have won, it's pretty much the only time I got pissed at how the deck performed. Game one I did the good old play goyf, get it swords, still have all these factories that get around firespout really nicely plan. Game two I keep a one lander with brainstorm, force, two REBs, and some other gas on the draw. Pretty much my hand is insane so long as I hit land drops. So of course I miss my land drop on turn 2, and have to discard a jace. At the end of the game this is the difference maker, as after the whole game we trade spells back and forth, and in the end he has the final jace in play that seals my doom. Definitely a game I win if I just hit my second land drop, but it was a risk and I got punished for taking the gamble. Game three mind harness almost gets there, as I just need him to not draw a land to play the two sowers that I know he has in hand via vendillion clique. Unfortunately, he has the land, and proceeds to wreck me with sower jace since I boarded out my removal.

6-2, 6th place

I really felt that I could have won the quarters matchup, since I usually play against countertop really well and I rarely lose to the deck with NLT. The game 2 keep was loose, but other than that I just didn't have the right cards at the right times. The deck is still sick though, it just needs some tweaks to deal with problem cards. Without maindeck control magic effects (sower, shackles, etc), the maindeck is hard pressed to deal with guys like KotR. And I'm not really sure how I want to address the problem. One of my friends suggested gilded drake as a possibility, and it doesn't seem too bad. You can even use it with jace for great effect, pretty much taking their dudes one by one. My friend also suggested using guilded drake with repeal, but that seems to be more of a counterbalance card then something that NLT wants to use. Mind harness was decent throughout the day, but it was never spectacular. In fact, the cumulative upkeep was annoying to pay, plus sometimes it got a little close to losing me the game with all my mana gone each turn. Plus the fact that EE still deals with it in new horizons doesn't really help. At least control magic has a one time mana investment and doesn't get taken out by EE either. The maindeck firespouts were also pretty awesome, since they took plenty of people by surprise and did what fire//ice usually does. Plus, any time I didn't need it brainstorm and jace were there to send it back to sender.

Bon je test et je reviens au topic  

[Theonlyone]

Je plussoie necrotyr sur LS, jouer tempo actuellement avec aussi peu de bêtes, c'est carrément du suicide. Tu vas perdre contre zoo et t'empaler sur des contrôles soit plus lourds, soit plus aggro. Concernant les fetchs et les asphyxies, ça fait des choses contre aggro ok. Mais au pire on va attendre que tu poses un truc ou te mettes full tap pour commencer à aller chercher des lands, donc l'argument me semble faible. Surtout, t'as aucune clock contre LS donc, l'adversaire a le temps de s'installer.

[Jo_la_loose]

euh... non.

ll ne suffit pas de lire une liste en diagonale en affirmant un truc avec applombtempo non contrôle) pour conlcure, hein. Il faut aussi voir comment ça se joue, et ce que ça joue.

Autant je pense moi aussi que la liste est plutôt obsolète maintenant (mais pas à cause de Landstill, et évidemment pas à cause de zoo), autant dire que Landstill a un très bon Mu contre elle c'est une erreur et, encore plus naze, affirmer que zoo a un bon MU contre elle ( ), c'est du délire.

Perso (mais je jouais 3 Jace et 1 sower, donc ça aide), j'ai joué deux fois contre Landstill à un SE du BOM et j'ai gagné une fois 2-0 et une fois 2-1, et franchement c'est facile de regarder les cartes faibles dans le MU sans constater que le deck joue aussi des cartes énormes contre. Notamment Vendilion Clique en 3 exemplaires, qui est la meilleur créature du format contre Landstill, et des man lands avec crucible, et des Jace... Post-side, tu rentres le mauvais, et tu gardes l'énorme (et tu rentres Glen Elendra archmage, deuxième meilleure bête contre Landstill, et post-side t'as un plan simple : Clique fin de tour pour Archmage ou Jace à ton tour. GG. Je schématise mais pas beaucoup.).
Pour résumer, le MU contre Landstill va de bon (pour toutes les version jouant plus de deux couleurs) à équilibré (contre UW, qui a une base de mana en béton armé). Mais le deck ne se fait certainement pas défoncer par Landstill.

Je reviens à l'affirmation la plus erronée :

Citation

Tu vas perdre contre zoo

. Magnifique, pour un deck qui est tout simplement un prédateur de zoo. Il suffit d'ailleurs de lire les reports pour voir que le deck gagne à peu près toujours contre zoo (par exemple le report ci-dessus, 3 zoos 3 victoires ou aussi le report du mec qui l'a créé pour le GP Madrid ici et ici, au passage le mec y a battu un Landstill).
A noter quand même ce que dit l'auteur du report en anglais : "Game one is the first zoo game I drop". voilà voilà.

Pour info, ma denrière liste en date (il y a donc quelque chose comme 10 mois ) jouait également firespout MD, plus aucune fire/ice, et 3 Jace, et ça marchait correctement.

[planarvoid]

oui je tiens a preciser que la liste en début de primer est la liste du deck original y a +/- 1 an.

C'est clair qu'elle est obsolete!!

Faut regarder les dernieres en fin de post plutot.
Et comme Jo le dis, les fire//ice sont a retirer pour du firespout maindeck.

J'ai juste fais un travail de traduction par rapport au post original, la liste et le primer doivent vivre, bien evidemment.

Quoi qu'il en soit, le deck est sujet à controverse sur le fofo, c'est bien, ca fais avancer le truc