254 réponses à ce sujet

[welele]

Guide gobelin et le mana denial, on a vu plus synergique aussi...

[isamu]

Fete fracassante en side semble une bonne solution face à trini, cotv et batterskull and co.
Le recul des decks CotV notamment à cause de Abrupt Decay, fait que je n'ai pas prévu de side à cet effet, mais selon le méta c'est tout à fait envisageable.

Ma liste précédente contenait 3 snapcaster (pour - 3 guide)
Personnellement j'ai regretté l'absence de ce tour 1 qu'est guide, qui permet de mettre une pression tout de suite et fait facilement ses 4 dégats. sa capa haste n'est pas non plus négligeable pour donner un second souffle en midgame.

Modifié par isamu, 16 October 2012 - 12:42 .

[OrGy]

welele, le 16 October 2012 - 07:11 , dit :

Guide gobelin et le mana denial, on a vu plus synergique aussi...

Pourtant, l'interaction n'est pas aussi anti-synergique que tu le mentionnes : A mon sens, tu fais l'amalgame entre mana denial et tempo ici.

Guide applique une pression immédiate sur les PV adverses avec la contrepartie de lui faire potentiellement piocher des lands.
Wasteland attaque les ressources de l'adversaire et retarde l'arrivée au point où l'adversaire commencera à stabiliser.
Tant que ce dernier ne peut poser qu'un land par tour, les Waste prolongent la phase d'Early game dans laquelle le deck tempo excelle pour mettre ses PV.
Si la partie se prolonge, Guide est dramatique, sans même parler de son interaction avec Waste : Si on restreint l'analyse aux tours 1 à 3 en revanche, les deux cohabitent franchement bien ensemble.

[isamu]

Merci Orgy, tu as mis les mots sur ce que je voulais expliquer.

Quand j'ai remanié ma liste pour faire une version Full Tempo.  Le but était pas de faire du mana denial pur et dur, mais surtout d'assurer le tempo et empecher l'adversaire de jouer des bombes ingéréables. Le pack stiffle / waste / daze couplé à une pression rapide, permettait d'avoir une fenêtre plus large pour mettre fin à la  partie grâce aux blasts.

Il était imporant de ''couper'' l'accés aux sorts à 3 CC et plus, J'ai donc recherché tous les beater possible à 1 CC, afin d'assurer le drop de la menace tour 1, et de pouvoir faire tour 2 : menace + denial. La liste est pas là pour aller dans le end game sinon c'est la loose, donc guide rentre tout de même bien dans la stratégie et faut pas oublier que cela donne des infos sur la pioche adverse, qui nous permette d'appliquer le denial correctement. A long terme guide est mauvais, donc son défaut correspond au le plan de jeu.

Modifié par isamu, 16 October 2012 - 13:05 .

[welele]

OrGy, le 16 October 2012 - 08:57 , dit :

A mon sens, tu fais l'amalgame entre mana denial et tempo ici.

C'est bien possible, et je te remercie pour ce recadrage. Bon ben une serie de test en plus en pile...

[Rocco111]

Hello,

Voici une liste "discutable" qui a fini première du LCL Octubre 2012 (un tournoi à Barcelone, semble-t-il) :

Maindeck
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thunderous Wrath
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Forked Bolt

Pour info, il y avait 131 joueurs avec le top8 suivant:
1st UR Burn by Sergi Barqué 2nd Maverick by Jordi Blanco Top4 Threshold UGr by Marc Durán Top4 Berserk Stompy by Christian Bravo Top8 Team America by Toni Anaya Top8 OmniTell by Eugeni Sanchez Top8 Maverick by Thil Stephane Top8 Ad Nauseam Tendrils by Iñaki Puigdollers

Perso, je salue la performance du joueur, c'est certain mais son sideboard me fait un peu bugger quand même. Au risque de dire une boulette, je trouve ça assez surprenant qu'il n'intègre aucune solution contre des arto (CotV @1 et on a un mec qui gagne un aller simple pour Cap Canaveral). C'est peut-être une fixette de ma part car je le dis souvent. Mais l'expérience est tellement douloureuse qu'en général on s'en souvient.
Le one-off Flusterstorm aussi, j'ai un peu de mal. Si c'est pour lutter efficacement face à Storm.deck, en jouer un seul me paraît pas forcément être la meilleure approche. Même si j'imagine qu'il rentre avec la 4ème FoW et les Surgical (voir des Elementals Blasts selon la liste qu'il affronte)...

Par contre, les Sulfuric MD, ça, j'aime. Au moins sur le principe. Parce que malgré tout un CCM de 3, c'est pas trop la joie dans le paquet.
Eeeeeeeet les 4 Thunderous qui font plaisir !

Modifié par Rocco111, 26 October 2012 - 12:58 .

[0/2Drop]

Je me rend compte que le nom du deck est mal référence ici et pas forcément à jour au niveau de la liste.
Peu de FR joue le pack ? Il as l'air plutôt nice avec des pyrox3 en side !

Report, decklist, side in side out d'un gros joueur américain de U/R Delver.
Il as fait plusieurs top8 de SCG Open et joue le deck depuis un an.
Il as fait top4 au SCG open Cincinnati et à pu posté un deck tech/report sur SCG.

My name is Andrew Schneider, and I live in Atlanta, GA. I'm sure most of you haven't heard of me before. I'm relatively new to MTG; I started playing around the Mirrodin Besieged release. I played in my first SCG Open Series about a month after getting started. I had an awesome time, and I knew I was hooked. After a few months of only playing in the Standard Opens, I started to look into Legacy. I was afraid of how big the card pool is because I knew I had only seen a very small fraction of the cards you're allowed to play with, but I figured the best way to learn would be to just jump in.

I decided to start with a Mono-Red Burn list because I knew it was a good choice for someone who was new to the format and, come on, who doesn't like Lightning Bolt? The SCG Invitational in Charlotte was coming up, and even though I wasn't qualified, I wanted to get the deck together so I could play in the Legacy Open.

I was at my local store the week before the event when I saw my friend, Anthony Avitollo, playing a deck that changed my Magic career. Anthony was playing a U/R Delver list that he and Adam Prosak had been working on for the SCG Invitational. After watching a few games, I knew that was the deck for me. Coincidentally, Andrew Shrout won SCG Legacy Open: St. Louis the week before the SCG Invitational with his version of U/R Delver.

After looking at these lists and begging the only people I knew who owned Legacy cards, I had a U/R Delver deck ready to go for Sunday. I impressed myself with a Top 32 finish, and I figured out three things: Legacy is really hard, Legacy is really fun, and U/R Delver is really fun. I bought my Volcanic Islands and Force of Wills the next day.

Since that tournament I've played in eight Legacy Opens, and U/R Delver was my deck of choice in each one. With three Top 8s and two trophies, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of the archetype. My most recent success was two weeks ago in Cincinnati.

U/R Delver
A Legacy deck, by Andrew Schneider
4th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Cincinnati, Ohio, United States on 2012-10-07
Print this deck!
Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce


Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:

2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Smelt
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Banefire
3 Lava Spike

Download this deck in
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Card Choices
4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Goblin Guide
These guys are the most efficient one-drops in Legacy, and this deck couldn't exist without them. The best start this deck can have involves one of them on turn 1. The strategy of this deck is very similar to old Standard where the Delver decks would play a Delver of Secrets on turn 1vand sit on Mana Leak. The only difference is that our counterspells are better and our deck has "eight" Delvers (and burn spells, but we'll get to that).

3 Grim Lavamancer
He can serve as a worse version of Delver of Secrets or Goblin Guide when you need a clock, but he is much more than that. When you untap with him in play against any creature deck, you are in control of the game. He shoots down Delver of Secrets, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Nettle Sentinel, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, and many more. Those creatures are everywhere, so having a guy that can kill them for one mana is too good not to play.

4 Snapcaster Mage
I want to draw this card every game. After your opponent deals with your first couple of threats, you'll be running out of gas. Snapcaster Mage lets you play a two-power creature at the end of their turn that throws a Lightning Bolt at their face. He can also recast a Spell Pierce for the Jace, the Mind Sculptor they were trying to stabilize with. Lots of decks in Legacy make use of Snapcaster Mage, but I like to think that U/R Delver gets the most out of him.

4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, and 2 Price of Progress


U/R Delver is a burn deck. Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are the best burn spells Legacy has to offer, and my favorite part about this deck is that our removal spells are also our win conditions. Against a combo deck, a card like Swords to Plowshares is usually dead, but we are able to use Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning to finish them rather than have them rotting in our hand.

Price of Progress is a card that goes from being amazing to mediocre depending on the metagame, but it's always good enough for at least two slots. In this metagame full of U/W Control, Price of Progress isn't at its best as they have a whopping seven basic lands in their deck usually. If you're new to Legacy that might not sound like a lot, but it is. If three-color decks like BUG Control start to become more popular (which I'm really hoping the printing of Abrupt Decay will make happen), then we're going to want to up the count of Price of Progress because they usually only have one or two basic lands in their deck.

I get asked a lot of about the card Thunderous Wrath. I think it's really bad in this deck. Sure, five damage for one mana is an awesome deal, but you give up a lot of consistency for that to happen. Brainstorm's main job in this deck is to prevent us from flooding. I really don't want to put more strain on my Brainstorms by having to set up miracles. Don't even get me started on the hands you have to mulligan because you drew a Thunderous Wrath or two and zero Brainstorm.

3 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce, and 2 Daze
People like to be jerks and play unfair things in Legacy. We need to play counterspells to keep them in check. Against any fair deck it would be way better for these to be more burn spells, but we're playing blue for this very reason. Mono-Red Burn usually loses to decks like Show and Tell, Goblin Charbelcher, Storm, High Tide, etc. (all decks that can kill you within the first three turns of the game).

The blue in our deck gives us a lot of help against these types of strategies. I like the 3/3/2 split I have on the counters currently. Force of Will is awful but a necessary evil, so I wouldn't recommend the fourth copy in the main if you decide to make any changes. Also, I don't think Spell Snare fits in this deck because the only two-drop we care about that isn't hit by Spell Pierce is Tarmogoyf.

4 Brainstorm and 3 Ponder
Legacy is the Brainstorm format. In this deck, its main function is to put two lands back on your deck so they can be shuffled away with a fetchland. It's also very fun to Brainstorm on turn 2 with the Delver of Secrets trigger on the stack so that you can guarantee it flips. Ponder serves a similar role since we only have to draw the good cards from Ponder thanks to the fetchlands. Brainstorm is the hardest card in the deck to play correctly, not close. As you play Legacy more, you'll learn this on your own.

12 Fetchlands
We want Brainstorm and Ponder to be as good as possible, and it's nice to give Grim Lavamancer fuel that isn't a Snapcaster Mage target.

After watching the replay of coverage from Cincinnati, I noticed that the commentators were having a hard time figuring out my sideboard. This didn't surprise me because I know it looks odd. I normally get a laugh about the Lava Spikes and an eye roll from the Banefire. I spend a lot of time thinking about this deck, and the majority of that time is spent on the sideboard. I know what I'm doing—promise.

4 Surgical Extraction
Every deck in Legacy has graveyard hate. This is the best choice for this deck because we are playing four Snapcaster Mage, which means the deck kind of has eight graveyard hate spells. Against Dredge, a Surgical Extraction and a Snapcaster Mage is usually enough to get ahead of them.

2 Smelt
I used to play Smash to Smithereens as my artifact destruction spell of choice. The fact that it costs two mana started becoming an issue against Stoneblade. We normally have three lands in play, so when our Smash to Smithereens is met with a Spell Pierce that we can't pay for we are very dead to their Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte. Playing this over Smash does make our matchup against Chalice of the Void decks much worse, but I think it's worth it.

2 Pyroblast
Show and Tell is blue. Counterbalance is blue. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is blue. Those are three of the best cards in the format, so having a one-mana answer available to us is too good to pass up.

2 Sulfuric Vortex
This card is at an all-time high for how important it is in the sideboard of this deck. It probably needs to go up to a third copy. U/W Control is not an easy matchup, and this card pulls a ton of weight. It's also very good against Stoneblade because their plan involves them stabilizing with life gain via Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte.

1 Force of Will
Same reason it's good in the main. We need it against the meanie combo decks.

3 Lava Spike
Now we're getting to the odd ones. This slot used to be three Submerge. I get asked all the time why I don't have Submerge—my answer is that it doesn't do anything. Sure, you can get a bad RUG player to shuffle away their Tarmogoyf when they fetch with their irrelevant third land that they shouldn't have played in the first place. It's also not the worst when a Maverick player activates their Knight of the Reliquary, but we don't really need the help in that matchup anyway.

RUG isn't a good matchup, and Submerge doesn't help it. Submerge doesn't equal damage against them because they usually kill all of our guys in anyway. It only buys us a turn. Against them, we need to kill them before our Goblin Guides become awful against their Nimble Mongooses and Tarmogoyfs. One of RUG's worst matchups is Mono-Red Burn, and I want to try to mimic its game plan as much as possible.

1 Banefire
My roommate, John Person, can be thanked for this one. I was complaining about how rough the U/W Control matchup is and how I wanted a burn spell that gets around Counterbalance. He instantly said Banefire, and everyone in the car laughed. Then I thought about it more, and he was actually right. All the game 3s against U/W Control that I've lost came down to them being at five or less life and me being locked out of the game by Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. A miser Banefire gives me an out to this situation. It might just need to be the third Sulfuric Vortex, but I like knowing I have this in my deck as an out when that situation comes up.

Sideboarding Against the Major Decks
RUG Delver
+3 Lava Spike, -3 Force of Will

We want to kill them as fast as possible. Force of Will is very bad against them because they're trading with you one for one until they can play a creature that's better than yours (Tarmogoyf or a threshold Nimble Mongoose). Our best route to victory is sticking a Delver of Secrets or a Grim Lavamancer and protecting them with our Spell Pierces and Dazes while burning their face with our eleven Bolts. Goblin Guide isn't very good against 4/5 creatures or shrouded 3/3 creatures.

Show and Tell
+2 Pyroblast, +1 Force of Will, -3 Chain Lightning

We want to stick a threat against them on turn 1 and hold up our counters for when they try to cast Show and Tell. It doesn't matter if they put in Omniscience, Griselbrand, or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn—we die to all of them. We want to side out our sorcery burn because tapping a red mana is one less red open to cast Pyroblast or to pay for their Spell Pierce / Daze.

U/W Control
+2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Banefire (and Smelt if they have Stoneforge), -1 Force of Will, -2 Price of Progress, -1 Ponder, -1 Chain Lightning

We really need to keep Counterbalance off the board in this matchup, so it might be right to leave the third Force of Will in the deck. Our main goal is to get a Sulfuric Vortex to stick and hope we can get enough damage through while it's clocking both of us. Our counterspells are also good for when they play the inevitable Entreat the Angels as their win condition.

Stoneblade
+2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Smelt, +3 Lava Spike, - 3 Force of Will, - 2 Spell Pierce, - 2 Daze

This deck plays very fair, and we don't need our counter spells against them. I like the burn plan in this matchup, and it's been working for me. Sulfuric Vortex turns off the life gain of Batterskull while simultaneously providing us with a clock. Smelt is for when we don't draw Sulfuric Vortex or if it gets countered.

Maverick
+2 Smelt, +3 Lava Spike, -3 Force of Will, -2 Daze

Same reasoning as above except Sulfuric Vortex is bad against a deck with seven ways to get a Qasali Pridemage (Green Sun's Zenith). Spell Pierce is fine because it hits their planeswalkers, Swords to Plowshares, Sylvan Library, and equipment.

Dredge
+4 Surgical Extraction, +1 Force of Will, -2 Price of Progress, -1 Chain Lightning, -2 Daze

You want Force of Will and Spell Pierce to hit their enablers (Lion's Eye Diamond, Careful Study, Putrid Imp, Faithless Looting, and Breakthrough). Daze might need to stay in over some burn as well. Surgical Extraction should usually be pointed at Narcomoeba or Ichorid, but sometimes it's correct to hit their dredgers. Another good thing to remember is that you can use Grim Lavamancer or Lightning Bolt on your own creature to remove the Bridge from Belows from their graveyard.

Those are the decks I've played against most frequently when I've played in Legacy Opens, and I like the plans I have against all of them. I hope some of you decide to try U/R Delver out at the next SCG Open Series you play in. You'll definitely have a good time. If you have any questions, you can leave them in the comments. You can also message me on Twitter @On__The__Grind .

[Apocalypse666]

Mon avis vaut ce qu'il vaut... mais quand le deck était ultra à la mode j'avais pas mal testé et on passait pas rug delver...
Il en parle dans son article quand il dit : "il faut gagner avant que tarmo et nimble mongoose ne puisse bloquer goblin guide", le truc c'est que du coup toutes les mains avec tarmo dedans deviennent hyper compliquées à battre.

Après, le MU miracle est très peu développé dans son article, il dit qu'il faut garder counterbalance en dehors de la table mais il donne pas vraiment son avis sur le MU, et je pense que c'est peut être qu'il n'est pas fameux...

Et si rug et miracle sont pas bons, dur dur de sortir le pack en ce moment non?

Dans tes tests tu le trouves bien placé actuellement pour relancer le débat ?
Donne nous un peu ton avis car là pas évident de rebondir.

[le ch'ti lorrain]

trop de peu de mav en ce moment pour sortir le pack

[0/2Drop]

Ok merci, je vais pas perdre mon temps pour rien.

[Igor Sedenko]

Apocalypse666, le 27 October 2012 - 11:41 , dit :

Mon avis vaut ce qu'il vaut... mais quand le deck était ultra à la mode j'avais pas mal testé et on passait pas rug delver...
Il en parle dans son article quand il dit : "il faut gagner avant que tarmo et nimble mongoose ne puisse bloquer goblin guide", le truc c'est que du coup toutes les mains avec tarmo dedans deviennent hyper compliquées à battre.

Après, le MU miracle est très peu développé dans son article, il dit qu'il faut garder counterbalance en dehors de la table mais il donne pas vraiment son avis sur le MU, et je pense que c'est peut être qu'il n'est pas fameux...

Et si rug et miracle sont pas bons, dur dur de sortir le pack en ce moment non?

Dans tes tests tu le trouves bien placé actuellement pour relancer le débat ?
Donne nous un peu ton avis car là pas évident de rebondir.

J'ai pas mal joué le jeu il y a encore 3/4 mois et effectivement, j'avais beaucoup de mal contre RUG et UW Miracle. Mais je ne jouais pas le même side.
Contre RUG, je pense qu'il a vraiment la bonne approche. Ce qu'il dit sur Submerge est vraiment intéressant : perso, chaque fois, j'étais content de la toucher, mais en fait, elle me faisait juste gagner un tour (pour les mêmes raisons qu'il donne). Les trois Lava Spike sont je pense vraiment un bon choix. Il faut tout simplement aller plus vite que RUG ce qui est tout à fait dans les cordes de UR Delver. Tout ça n'est pas anodin car en regardant les listes d'UR delver, je n'avais vu personne mettre trois blasts en side. Peut-être a-t-on trop rapidement oublier que UR est par nature un burn.deck.

Je suis également fan du random banefire. Les parties contre UW pioncent tellement que ce out est très intéressant et il arrive régulièrement pour UR delver d'avoir 6 ou 7 lands sur le board en late game contre ce MU. Maintenant, c'est vrai qu'il développe peu et je rejoins ta réflexion, le MU reste pas exceptionnel. Je suis plus optimiste pour RUG au vue de son approche.

[le ch'ti lorrain]

0/2Drop, le 27 October 2012 - 13:21 , dit :

Ok merci, je vais pas perdre mon temps pour rien.

bah c'est un bon deck quand meme. en ce moment gob revient, et abrupt decay et jouer, si les cb diminue que les combo reviennent et que le predateur à combo joue full non basic, ce sera un bon choix. c'est juste un deck de méta amha

sinon c'est vrai que les plans de side ont l'air intéressant

[maveric78f]

Apocalypse666, le 27 October 2012 - 11:41 , dit :

Mon avis vaut ce qu'il vaut... mais quand le deck était ultra à la mode j'avais pas mal testé et on passait pas rug delver...
Il en parle dans son article quand il dit : "il faut gagner avant que tarmo et nimble mongoose ne puisse bloquer goblin guide", le truc c'est que du coup toutes les mains avec tarmo dedans deviennent hyper compliquées à battre.

C'est pas le deck idéal pour jouer le plan nivmagus + flusterstorm? Pour le coup, il bouffe du tarmo et de la mangouste à toutes les sauces.

[Upsilon]

De toute manière à mon avis si UN deck peut tenter nivmagus c'est bien UR Delver. (Qui a dit "on est plus a une carte pourrie dans ce TT de pauvre" !?). Sérieusement, effectivement il pourrait être tentant de le considérer comme le tarmo du pauvre. Sauf que son set up est compliqué: ok il recycle daze en middle game. Il implique surtout de jouer flusterstorm, qui reste moins polyvalent (du coup moins bon ?) que spell pierce.
Je joue UR Delver depuis un petit mois, et je me suis commandé Niv + flusterstorm pour tester en vrai. Mais les tests cocka me laissent déjà un peu sur ma faim, par rapport à ce qu'il promet, il est rarement a la hauteur.

[swayjisse]

Petit Compte-Rendu de tournoi à MC de 16 joueurs hier soir ou le deck finit 2eme.

Avant de commencer, j'hésite entre Enchanteresse et Ur Nivmagus
Sur les conseils d'enishi, je prendrai Ur Nivmagus qui se revelera un excellent choix

Ronde 1 - Storm 1-0
Le pauvre, Flusterstorm x4 en MD. Même si son deck était en test (test du Epic Storm), il n'a pas eu de chance niveau pairing.
Malgré tout, il se défend vaillament et le match se finira sur 1-0 car nous aurons même pas le temps de finir la 2.

Ronde 2 - Cloudpost 2-1
La une, je prendrai show avec aucun contre en back-up.
La 2, je rentre mes prix , surgical et drakon. Prix fera la game en lui collant un 12 de dégat
La 3 est également tendu mais un premier drakon prendra un de ces eldrazi. Il concède dans les tours additionnels.

Ronde 3 - Ur Delver 2-1
C'est mon ami. Il ne joue pas de waste, ni snap. Je fais de la denial avec waste et stifle.
Si tu me lis, je te rejoins sur "j'ai le match-up".

Ronde 4 - Affi 0-2
C'est une surprise. Surtout après avoir jouer ça le week-end à Lyon.
Il connait très bien son paquet. Je n'ai rien de particulier en side. Stifle et Flusterstorm ne servent quasi à rien.
Je perds proprement 2-0.

Voila, première avec le paquet version nivmagus. J'ai deux vortex MD qui sont très souvent désidé. J'aimerai bien trouvé deux autres slots plus utiles.
Idem pour le side ou j'ai l'impression que submerge est moins utile qu'avant.
Si vous avez des idées, je suis preneur.